Sastra says Gita 2.20 - ‘’For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval’’. the word ''unborn'' is very clear meaning the jiva was never born.
Also BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
The jivas were never created
Everything is already there in Vaikuntha. Just manifests in different pastimes.
BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
The above verse explains , it is not that the souls are created at some point of a time of creation. The souls always existed along with the supersoul Krishna as his part and parcel . Just like
"Sunlight exists along with Sun as a part of sun"
"Spark exists along with fire as a part of it"
"Heat exists along with fire as an attribute of fire"
Similarly each soul (Brahman) exists along with their leader (para-Brahman) krishna. And to confirm that Krishna again says
BG 2.20: For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval.
Soul is birthless, hence there is nothing as such Creation of soul. Again he go on saying He is unborn,eternal, ever-existing and primeval. Here the three words unborn, eternal and ever-existing makes it very clear that the soul has no birth, so it is not created that's why it is eternal and ever-existing , just like heat always exists with fire , fragrance always exists with flower.
Again the same thing i.e. nature of the soul (unborn, eternal, indestructible , ever-existing ) Krishna emphasizing again and again in further verses. In Vedic literature on some context is given much importance to make audience understand it repeats the context again and again to make it clear and confirm.
BG 2.21: O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?
BG 2.24: This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same.
Thus it confirms in this way that Soul is never created , it always existed along with Krishna as his energy. So Krishna is not creating soul,
The number of soul is fixed only Krishna’s lilas eternally expand.
Vaikuntha is eternal, no beginning souls there were never created and that is where we came from
Bhagavad Gita 2, 20 - For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval.
The permanent characteristics is ones eternal svarupa and while one is in that original position, as ones real self then the influence of tatastha does not exists even though technically it does.
When the word ''impersonal origin'' is used it means the state of the jiva and where it originates from.
Some say, ''they generate from a ''clear sheet of consciousness'' however it is this ''impersonal'' concept that Prabhupada rejects - ''Jivas are generated from a clear sheet of consciousness''
Prabhupada rejects the concept that ''souls are generated from a clear sheet of consciousness''
Also Prabhupada explains their is no origin to the jiva tattva and they fall from Vaikuntha to Maha Vishnu and the He plants them in the material creation, also no jiva tattva ''actually'' originates from Balarama or Maha Vishnu rather they go through them.
Yes and Balarama is older than Krishna too lol - its all lila
My point is the jivas were never created by Balarama or Krishna they have always been, only the material world is created.
Sastra says Gita 2.20 - ‘’For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval’’. the word ''unborn'' is very clear meaning the jiva was never born.
Also BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
The jivas were never created
Krishna is the maintainer of all existence in Goloka and Vaikuntha and His material ''creation'' Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, The jivas are nothing without Krishna and Krishna has no meaning without the jivas as Srila Prabhupada explains in ''Nectar of Devotion''
Both are equally eternal in the sense of there is no beginning but Krishna is always the Supreme Lord even though He has an older brother Balarama LOL.
Krishna has 100% of His own qualities, Vishnu has 93% of Krishna's qualities, Shiva has 84% of Krishna's qualities and the jivas like you and me have 78% of Krishna's qualities.
Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, they are NOT created by Krishna because they were never ''born'' they were never ''created''
Like Krishna the jivas have ALWAYS existed just ike the sunrays exist with the sun, this is how the jivas also eternally exist.
Krishna NEVER created the jivas, Why? But He is the Supreme Lord, yes true but the individual jivas were never created because they are eternally part of Him like the sunrays are part of the sun, they exist together and are inseparable.
To say we, the marginal living entities, are not eternal and ever existing and does not have a beginning as ''originally'' an eternal person, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.
Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.
Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.
The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down. It does not matter where a living entity stays. In the material world also there are different stages of living conditions, and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition.
Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.
Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahma effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.
As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.
In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.
So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.”
What Prabhupada is saying is the jivas were previously active ''before'' entering Maha Vishnu's effulgence, he is saying they never originated from that effulgence even though it may ''appear'' they do because of an enormous time span.
They have actually fallen to that effulgence by entering it at the end of the previous material creation or may have entered it as an impersonalist yogi, they have never originated from there or Maha Vishnu either because long, long, long before that they fell from Vaikuntha
This is explained here –
Revatīnandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahma-jyotir, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahma-jyotir is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva soul, and I go to the brahma-jyotir I'm still fallen.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: That follows?
Srila Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vibhinnāṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnāṁśa. You can call it fallen.
Revatīnandana: But we usually think of fallen as being forgetful.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also forgetfulness. In the brahma-jyotir you are forgetful still. Because you are... That is stated in the śāstra, anādhṛta yuṣmad anghrayaḥ. Anādhṛta. They do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness.
Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album
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