The real meaning of Tatastha s’akti and the origin of the Jiva
Lecture on CC Madhya-lila 20.354-358 -- New York, December 28, 1966:
Srila Prabhupada – ‘’So Lord Caitanya gives evidences from the Mahā-purāṇam, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that the Supreme Lord, the Absolute Truth, is analysed in two characteristics. What are they? The are the personal characteristics and taṭastha characteristics?
Srila Prabhupada explains further - ''Taṭastha means they are sometimes manifested and they are not sometimes manifested. So this material world is the taṭastha characteristics, and the spiritual world is the personal characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha, or, I mean to say, taṭastha means marginal, marginal characteristics to the permanent characteristics. That is called spiritual elevation. We should not remain in the marginal state, but we should go to the permanent state’’. End of quote Lecture on CC Madhya-lila 20.354-358 -- New York, December 28, 1966:
Srila Prabhupada is saying that in Goloka the jiva tattva is not known as tatastha sakti even though they are however, they are not called that there, this is Prabhupada's point, he calls that position ''permanent characteristics''
Tatastha s’akti is a name for the jiva tattva in the material creation and impersonal brahman that simply means we have the ability to choose this side of being with Krishna or that side being in the mahat-tattva material creation, no-one comes from there because it is not a place.
There are 160 names for the jiva-tattva or the marginal energy like baddha--jiva, siddha-jiva, tatastha-jiva, jiva-tattva, jiva-s'akti, jiva bhutah etc that each describe the marginal living entity in its particular position.
For example tatastha s’akti or jiva-tatastha refers to the jiva-tattva's sovereignty as an individual living being while in the material creation or merged in the impersonal brahmajyoti THAT HAS FREE WILL AND THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE its destiny.
NO jiva-tattva comes from tatastha-s'akti because THEY are ALREADY tatastha-s'akti while in the material universe or trapped in the impersonal brahman and are ALWAYS jiva tattva or marginal energy while in Vaikuntha, material creation or the impersonal brahmajyoti.
Tatastha-s'akti is NOT some place in the cosmos; it is simply a description of the jiva-tattva (marginal living entity) nature pertaining to free will and the ability to choose while in the material universe and this category of jiva tattva known as jiva tatastha does not exist in the Vaikuntha explained at the end of this article.
In fact to enter Vaikuntha, one must progress beyond this level of jiva tattva known as tatastha in order to enter Vaikuntha as Srila Prabhupada explains
Tatastha s’akti simply means we have the ability to choose this side or material creation or that side or Vaikuntha planets while in the material universe or impersonal brahmajyoti.
Is the jiva tattva or marginal living entity known as tatastha-sakti in Vaikuntha or Goloka?
Srila Prabhupada - ''Taṭastha means they are sometimes manifested and they are not sometimes manifested. So this material world is the taṭastha characteristics, and the spiritual world is the personal characteristics.
So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha. or, I mean to say, taṭastha means marginal, marginal characteristics to the permanent characteristics''.
The comment ‘’The jiva is NEVER known as tatastha-sakti in Vaikuntha or Goloka’’ needs explaining, it is based it on this comment by Srila Prabhupada above
‘’ So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha’’
So what does that mean?
The jiva tattva is not ‘’known’’ as tatastha-sakti in Vaikuntha, that's what is meant even though technically the jiva-tattva is Tatastra sakti there too, just not known so there as such, that's what is meant.
Therefore the jiva-tattva in his svarupa position is NOT known in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana as tatastha sakti,
let me explain
Srila Prabhupada - ''Taṭastha means they are sometimes manifested and they are not sometimes manifested. So this material world is the taṭastha characteristics, and the spiritual world is the personal characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha’’
Then Prabhupada explains the ‘’permanent feature’’ of the marginal living entity or jiva tattva is above the ‘’influence of what the word tatastha’’ or choosing this side or that side because in Vaikuntha the great majority of jiva tattvas generally only chooses Krishna
However, as we know that can change due to free will, the ability to choose or sheer smallness of the marginal living entity and only then does the influence of tatastha manifest with less that 10% of jiva tattvas in Vaikuntha.
Prabhupada says – ‘’ Taṭastha means marginal, marginal characteristics to the ‘’permanent characteristics’’.
Do you understand what this ‘’permanent characteristics’’ means? It’s beyond the meaning of tatastha of actually ‘’choosing this side or that side, choosing Vaikuntha or the material world because the majority, 90% never ever make that choice and never fall down
The permanent characteristics is ones eternal svarupa and while one is in that original position, as ones real self then the influence of tatastha does not exists even though technically it does.
When the word ''impersonal origin'' is used it means the state of the jiva and where it originates from.
Some say, ''they generate from a ''clear sheet of consciousness'' however it is this ''impersonal'' concept that Prabhupada rejects - ''Jivas are NOT generated from a clear sheet of consciousness''
Prabhupada rejects the concept that ''souls are generated from a clear sheet of consciousness''
Also Prabhupada explains their is no origin to the jiva tattva and they fall from Vaikuntha to Maha Vishnu and the He plants them in the material creation, also no jiva tattva ''actually'' originates from Balarama or Maha Vishnu rather they go through them.
Yes and Balarama is older than Krishna too lol - its all lila
My point is the jivas were never created by Balarama or Krishna they have always been, only the material world is created.
Sastra says Gita 2.20 - ‘’For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval’’. the word ''unborn'' is very clear meaning the jiva was never born.
Also BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
The jivas were never created
Krishna is the maintainer of all existence in Goloka and Vaikuntha and His material ''creation'' Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, The jivas are nothing without Krishna and Krishna has no meaning without the jivas as Srila Prabhupada explains in ''Nectar of Devotion''
Both are equally eternal in the sense of there is no beginning but Krishna is always the Supreme Lord even though He has an older brother Balarama LOL.
Krishna has 100% of His own qualities, Vishnu has 93% of Krishna's qualities, Shiva has 84% of Krishna's qualities and the jivas like you and me have 78% of Krishna's qualities.
Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, they are NOT created by Krishna because they were never ''born'' they were never ''created''
Like Krishna the jivas have ALWAYS existed just ike the sunrays exist with the sun, this is how the jivas also eternally exist.
Krishna NEVER created the jivas, Why? But He is the Supreme Lord, yes true but the individual jivas were never created because they are eternally part of Him like the sunrays are part of the sun, they exist together and are inseparable.
To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.
Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.
Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.
The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down.
It does not matter where a living entity stays. In the material world also there are different stages of living conditions, and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition.
Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.
Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahman effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.
As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.
In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.
So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.”
What Prabhupada is saying is the jivas were previously active ''before'' entering Maha Vishnu's effulgence, he is saying they never originated from that effulgence even though it may ''appear'' they do because of an enormous time span.
They have actually fallen to that effulgence by entering it at the end of the previous material creation or may have entered it as an impersonalist yogi, they have never originated from there or Maha Vishnu either because long, long, long before that they fell from Vaikuntha
This is explained here –
Revatīnandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahma-jyotir, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahma-jyotir is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva soul, and I go to the brahma-jyotir I'm still fallen.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: That follows?
Srila Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vibhinnāṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnāṁśa. You can call it fallen.
Revatīnandana: But we usually think of fallen as being forgetful.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also forgetfulness. In the brahma-jyotir you are forgetful still. Because you are... That is stated in the śāstra, anādhṛta yuṣmad anghrayaḥ. Anādhṛta. They do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness.
Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha Krsna Bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Devotee - “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.
Srila Prabhupada - “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .”
Sakti is not exactly Visnu Tattva even though sakti tattva is also called sakti-Vishnu-tattva. The correct understanding is that all of Krsna’s energies are under the broad category of sakti-tattva. To make it simple there are only two categories.
1. Saktiman or God the controller of the energy
2. Sakti the energy of God are eternally occupied with their service to God, such expansions have only the desire to please Krishna or His Vishnu expansion, they can never be covered by Maya and their concept of free will and independence is only to please God as indirect expansion of Godhead.
Vaikuntha is made up of many sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas as gopis, gopas and many many others, there is also jiva tattvas playing many rolls in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana as well.
Sakti tattva nitya siddhas can never fall down and the jiva tattvas can NEVER become sakti tattva in the sense of loosing their independence as jiva tattva, even though technically all living entities are shakti tattva as well however, there is a difference also between different energies or expansions of the Lord.
We are also expansions. The jiva tattvas nitya siddhas like us on the other hand can 'choose' to forget God and enter the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu as nitya baddha and think they are a god and do their own thing.
God has many different energies. Jiva is one, Matter is one, the consorts of the Lord are one. Only the jiva tattvas can fall from Goloka Vrndavana neither sakti tattva or Vishnu tattva can fall as they are more divine expansions of the Lord.
Paramahamsa - “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return.
Srila Prabhupada - “There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is”.
Paramahamsa - “If we want”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.
Paramahamsa - “So we can come to the spiritual world and return?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.
Paramahamsa - “Fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.”
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna says - “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.
When asked directly about whether the jiva was ever in the spiritual world with Krishna and seeing Krishna ''before'' coming to the material world, Srila Prabhupada mentions that Krishna (in the form of a Brahmana) says to King Puranjana (in his next life, as the daughter of Kind Vidarbha) “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.
Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?”
Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.
Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)
Only a minority fall down from Goloka and Vaikuntha and for them the mahat-tattva is created. No jiva souls originate from an impersonal source or from some cleat sheet of consciousness as some foolishly believe and teach.
Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
Srila Prabhupada - 'The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha, to bring them. It is a difficult task' New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada? Why God gave to man free will if He knew man would fall down in the material world?
Prabhupada: If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must be, must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life. >>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 15.15 -- August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm)
We do not ''originate'' from Maha Vishnu, no jiva tattvas do, some merge into His body at the end of this material creation and stay there until the next material creation where it only ''appears'' the jiva originates from Maha Vishnu but long before that they were with Krishna.
Or they can merge into the impersonal brahmajyoti at the end of the material creation as a impersonalist yogi fed up with material existence. To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.
The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.
Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.”
Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire.
Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”.
Srila Prabhupada is very clear here - ''Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition''
The jiva tattva NEVER originated or was generated from the Brahman effulgence or the ''impersonal'' aspect of the Brahmajyoti they ''originated'' from the ''personal'' aspect of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky known as Vaikuntha.
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.
Srila Prabhupada: Many. There are many reasons.
Devotee: I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we, in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krishna--and in that position, that, original position of full knowledge and full bliss--and being in our eternal nature . . . Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how Maya works, somewhat. But, if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how Maya works and . . . How I might fall?
Srila Prabhupada: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa? They were Krishna's Doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranyakasipu or Hiranyaksa?
Devotee: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krishna's personal associates, keeping . . . the Doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.
Devotee: Well, in His family, they wanted to enjoy the material world?
Srila Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So, because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krishna. Therefore, we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment.
Leaving Vaikuntha has nothing to do with material energy or maya because these do not exist in Vaikuntha however what there is in Vaikuntha is ''free will'', the ''ability to choose'' Ones fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana is due to free will, the sheer smallness of the jiva tattva and choice, not maya because material energy does NOT exist in Vaikuntha, so there is absolutely no material cause for ones fall down from Goloka Vrndavana
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
