Vedic Evidence - Understanding the Earth realm we are on in relation to Bhu-mandala as a round global sphere

Vedic Evidence - Understanding the Earth realm we are on in relation to Bhu-mandala as a round global sphere

Is Earth A Globe? 

An excerpt from the forthcoming book

''Bhu-mandala Tattva-darshana''

By Rajasekhara Das Brahmachari​ Das ACBSP

A summary study of the 5th canto of Shrimad Bhagavatam

All the relevant verses from the Vedic scriptures including quotes from the Vaishnava acharyas, which establish the earth as a spherical globe floating in space (ether) that have been found while researching this subject.

As this summary study on the 5th canto continues it is expected that more verses confirming the earth as a globe will be found hidden within the Vedic scriptures.

SECTION ONE

DIRECT QUOTES FROM THE SHRIMAD BHAGAVATAM SUPPORTING THE ROUND GLOBE-LIKE SPHERICAL EARTH

Shrimad Bhagavatam 3.22.31:

Transliteration excerpt: bhuvam—the earth.

Manu spread a seat of kusas and kasas and worshiped the Lord, the Personality of Godhead, by whose grace he had obtained the rule of the terrestrial globe.

Shrimad Bhagavatam 5.16.4:

Transliteration excerpt: Bhu-goloka [Bhuloka] —the earth.
“The great rsi Sukadeva Gosvami said: My dear King, there is no limit to the expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead's material energy. This material world is a transformation of the material qualities [sattva-guna, rajo-guna and tamo-guna], yet no one could possibly explain it perfectly, even in a lifetime as long as that of Brahma.

No one in the material world is perfect, and an imperfect person could not describe this material universe accurately, even after continued speculation. O King, I shall nevertheless try to explain to you the principal regions, such as Bhu-goloka [Bhuloka], with their names, forms, measurements and various symptoms.”

NOTE: For an explanation of this verse [5.16.4] see the commentary below by Srivamsidhara & Viraraghava

Shrimad Bhagavatam 10.8. 37-39:

Transliteration excerpt: bhu-golam—the surface of the earth;
“When Krishna opened His mouth wide by the order of mother Yashoda, she saw within His mouth all moving and non-moving entities, outer space, and all directions, along with mountains, islands, oceans, the surface of the Earth, the blowing wind, fire, the moon and the stars.

She saw the planetary systems, water, light, air, sky, and creation by transformation of ahankara. She also saw the senses, the mind, sense perception, and the three qualities goodness, passion and ignorance.

She saw the time allotted for the living entities, she saw natural instinct and the reactions of karma, and she saw desires and different varieties of bodies, moving and non-moving. Seeing all these aspects of the cosmic manifestation, along with herself and Vrindavana-dhama, she became doubtful and fearful of her son's nature.”

Shrimad Bhagavatam 3.23.43

Transliteration excerpt: bhuvah—of the universe; golam—the globe.
“After showing his wife the globe of the universe and its different arrangements, full of many wonders, the great yogi Kardama Muni returned to his own hermitage.”

NOTE: For an explanation of this verse [3.23.43] see the commentary below by Shrila Srivamsidhara)

SECTION TWO

QUOTES BY THE VAISHNAVA ACHARYAS ON SHRIMAD BHAGAVATAM ESTABLISHING THE EARTH AS A GLOBE-LIKE SPHERE (Adapted from the book ‘Commentaries’)

Commentary by Srivamsidhara on SB.5.20.38 [C.p445]:

Parikshit has questioned (SB.5.16.4) about the Bhu-gola (the earth sphere) & Suka has replied. This confirms the spherical shape of astronomy. There is another word in that context - it is “vishesa” which means the golden anda (egg, universe). It is said that earth rests like a mustard seed on the hood of Ananta. The anology implies the spherical shape. In the Kardama story (SB.2.23.43) the word “bhuva golam” is used, which confirms the above fact.

NOTE: In the above statement, it is clear that Srivamsidhara has translated the Sanskrit word ‘bhu-gola’ as earth-globe. Furthermore, in classical Vedic astronomy (Jyotish-veda) mentioned by Shrivamsidhara, which is sometimes referred to as the ‘Siddhanta literatures’, the earth is always depicted as being a globe.

Yet another Bhagavatam commentator, the original Vaishnava commentator on the Shrimad Bhagavatam in the 11th century, the highly respected Shrila Shridhara Swami, whose commentary was read by Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, has mentioned in his commentary on the Vishnu Purana (2.8.43),

“The Puranas should not contradict astronomy”.

This means that when presenting the cosmology of the Bhagavata Purana & other Puranas, it should not contradict the opinion of the astronomical treatises known as the Jyotish-veda, which includes the famous Surya-siddhanta, which clearly states that the earth is a globe (bhu-gola).

Thus according to Shrila Shridhara Swami & Shrila Srivamsidhara, there must be a synthesis between the Puranas & the Siddhantas (Jyotish-veda).

The Sanskrit word "jyotish" means "jyoti" (light) and "isha" (lord). Therefore jyotish translates into "Light of the Lord" or " Light by which one can see the Lord”, as well as ‘Light of the Vedas'.

Although the cosmos is present before our eyes & explained in the verses of the Shrimad Bhagavatam, we cannot envision it without the help of the Jyotish-veda, which ‘illuminates’ the cosmic order of those things that are beyond our sensory perception.

Commentary of Viraraghava on SB.5.17.4 [C.p14]:

“After having been questioned, the sage-son of Badrinarayana replies that, “as the forms of the Lord are infinite, it is impossible to deal with them exhaustively by mind or words. Still, I promise to explain in more detail the earth globe.

Oh great king! Bhagavan’s treasure of amazing attributes, manifested into myriad, infinite globes for his sporting are countless and cannot be ascertained even through the entire life-span of any human being.

Hence instead of attempting to contemplate the impossible, I shall dwell on the prominent details of the earth-globe, its divisions, including the names, extents & nature etc. to answer your query.”

NOTE: It should be seen that in the above statement of Viraraghava, he has used the term “myriad, infinite globes” to describe all the planets in the Lord’s creation.

The same term ‘globe’ has also been applied to the earth. All of the previous acharyas were well versed in Vedic astronomy (Jyotish-veda) & fully conversant with the Siddhanta literatures. Thus, when using the word ‘bhu-gola’ they are definitely describing the earth-globe.

Commentary by Shridhara Swami on SB.5.25.12: “The earthen sphere along with mountains.”

Commentary by Yaduvarya on SB.5.25.12: “He bears the earth on His head like an atom.”

Commentary of Vijayadvaj Tirtha on SB.5.16.1: “The knowledge of the world-globe & its particulars is illustrative of Sri Narayana’s greatness & hence is essential for liberation.”

Commentary by Vishvanatha Chakravarty on SB.5.25.12:

“The earth rests like an atom on only one head (of Sesha).”
Commentary of Bhagavataprasadacarya on SB.5.16.1 [C.p4]:

(Commenting on Shridhara Swami’s second verse) “The periphery, the top, the bottom & the configuration of the earth globe & Meru, the central part of the earth lotus, are explained in the 16th chapter. The purport of this chapter it was said;

“As much as the sun in going around Meru illuminates it, it lights up half the surface of the earth & covers half.”

By this is to be understood that the sun makes day in one half of Meru by illumination not endowed with the darkness of night. The moon, along with the stars illuminating the portion of Meru not illuminated (by the sun) with qualities of moonlight surrounded with darkness makes night. Because this is the intention of the sages, followed by smrtis, it is not repeated.”

SECTION THREE

QUOTES BY THE VAISHNAVA ACHARYAS ESTABLISHING THAT
THE SAPTA-DWIPA ARE LOCATED ON THE EARTH-GLOBE
(Adapted from the book ‘Commentaries’)

Commentary of Shridhara Swami on SB.5.16.1 [C.p.1]:

“In the previous chapter, while narrating the story of King Priyavrata, mention was made of the divisions of the globe into islands.”
Commentary of Viraraghava on SB.5.17.1-3 [C.p9]:

“Thus having heard the episode of Priyavrata & his progeny, King Pariksit asks about the particulars of the division of islands etc. which were only briefly mentioned. Earth’s length (extent) & the world (globe) etc.”

Commentary of Srivamsidhara on SB.5.16.1 [C.p.2]: Comment by Shridhara Swami’s first verse. “The term “etc” after “islands” indicates continents.”

SECTION FOUR

QUOTES FROM SURYA-SIDDHANTA & SIDDHANTA-SIROMANI
(Translated & commented upon by Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura)

Surya-siddhanta 12.53: “The shape of the earth is spherical & situated in ether”.

Surya-siddhanta 12.53: “the shape of the Earth is spherical (vartula).”

Siddhanta-siromani 7.4: Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati’s comment; “the lunar eclipse takes place when the shadow of the earth falls on that of the moon.”

Siddhanta-siromani 12.9: “During the eclipse the shadow of the earth covers the moon and in case of a solar eclipse the shadow of the moon covers the sun”

NOTE: Only a round spherical earth-globe floating in ether can cast a shadow on the moon. Not a flat earth that is 4 billion miles in diameter.

From the Surya-siddhanta, Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura created the famous Gaudiya Panchang (panjika) for himself & for the devotees of the Gaudiya Math, so they could perfectly follow all the bhakti rituals, festivals & vratas of the Vedic calendar, including events like ekadashi & Surya/Chandra-graha (eclipse).

Even though a brilliant astronomer & child protégé, after reaching adulthood, the Thakura left the study of Jyotish-veda to concentrate on the study & dissemination of the bhakti shastras. Nevertheless, he strictly followed the Gaudiya Panchang throughout his life.

Even after sixty years since its inception, the Gaudiya Panchang is still being followed by millions of Vaishnavas in Bengal, Assam, Manipur & Orissa, as well as all the Gaudiya Goswami temples in Vrindavana. Shrila Prabhupada also followed this Gaudiya Panchang which he introduced into Iskcon from the time of its foundation in 1966.

SECTION FIVE
QUOTES FROM THE PURANAS

Vayu Purana 18.52.80-81: “Rahu moves from Surya to Chandra in lunar epochs (full moon). He again moves from Chandra to Surya in solar epochs (new moon).”

NOTE: This verse is also found in the Vishnu Purana.

Linga Purana 4.57.13: Rahu controls the shadow of the earth which is circular in shape

NOTE: The Puranas also support the version of Surya-siddhanta that the circular shadow of the earth causes the eclipse of the moon.

Markendeya Purana 51.13: Both the southern & northern hemispheres of the raised Jambu Island, there are three varshas each. Ilavrta is in the middle like a half moon attached to both hemispheres.

NOTE: The Markendeya Purana says that Jambudwipa has both northern & southern hemispheres. This indicates that Jambudwipa is a spherical globe, simply because only a sphere has iether northern & southern or eastern & western hemispheres (hemi-sphere = half of a sphere).

The descriptions found in the Markendeya Purana closely resemble those found in the Surya-siddhanta, particularly the description of Jambhudwipa having four prominent petals. Bharata-varsha, Ketumala-varsha, Kuru-varsha & Bhadrashva-varsha.

The Markandeya Purana also says that the Earth is flattened at the poles and bulging at the equator & that it is not perfectly spherical.

Vishnu Purana 2.7.15: “Whatever is attainable by feet is called Bhuloka.”

NOTE: According to this quote from the Vishnu Purana, only the earth planet is qualified to be called Bhu-loka as only on the earth can one transverse by foot.

SECTION SIX

OTHER SHASTRIC QUOTES

Rig Veda: There are verses that suggest that the earth was considered to be spherical. In the Satapatha Brahmana it describes the earth as parimandala, or in other words a globe-like sphere.

Mahabharata: Ch 5. (Jambhu-khanda-parva of Bhishma Parva): “This Bharata-khanda is called Sudarshana-dwipa, since it looks beautiful to the eyes of the onlookers. Being circular, it looks like the disc of the Lord & it is attached to the cycle of time in the form of a disc presided over by Bhagavan Sudarshana.

It is in the form of a globe since all the four corners of are rounded like a bael fruit. The nature of this Sudarshana-dwipa or Bharata-varsha is viewed from the moon. Half of this earth of Bharata-varsha appears like a rabbit & a small papal leaf, the other half appears in the form of a big pipal, & they are surrounded by all varieties of vegetation.

In this Bharata-varsha the rest of the portion other than the portions that appear like a rabbit & the papal leaf are almost covered with water except a few small portions of earth.”

Mahabharata: 3.188: “It is I who, assuming the form of Sesha support on my head this earth bounded by the four seas and decked by Meru and Mandara.”

NOTE: It should be understood in the above verse from Mahabharata, that there are only four seas mentioned & not seven oceans. Thus this verse is applicable to the earth globe only & not Bhu-mandala or the brahmanda.

The four seas mentioned are the Southern Ocean, Northern Ocean, Eastern Ocean & Western Ocean, or in other words the Ocean of Salt that surrounds Jambhudweep in the four cardinal directions. Thus the general perception found in Mahabharata is that the earth is a globe & there is only one salt ocean in the four cardinal directions.

SECTION SEVEN

SHRILA PRABHUPADA’S QUOTES ON THE EARTH-GLOBE (BHU-GOLA)

Morning walk. December 9, 1973, Los Angeles - In Vedic literature it is bhu-gola, jagad-andha.

These words are there. We can see also it is round, jagad- andha.. The universe is round. And Goloka. Or Bhu-gola. Bhu-gola, the earth is round. So in the Vedic literatures... Therefore their knowledge is also imperfect because they do not refer to the Vedic literatures. It is already there.

Bhu-gola. Bhu means the earth; gola means round. It is already there. And the geography's called, according to Sanskrit, it is called Bhu-gola. Long, long ago, before Galileo.

Lectures, Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.17, Los Angeles, January 12, 1974:

And again, if you start your plane in sunlight, in the morning, in daylight, so in the morning, and go to the western side, you will find never night. You will find never night, always light, always light. Sometimes we have got experience. We start from a place, say, at ten o’clock, and going western side.

Then, after few hours, we see it is still ten o’clock, and the light is there. This is our practical experience. (All the planets and the universes, they are egg shaped. Therefore they are called anda, jagadanda, brahmanda. (Lecture, Bhagavad-gita As It Is, 13.8-12, Bombay, September 30, 1973)

Lecture, Srimad-Bhagavatam, 1.2.5, Melbourne, April 3, 1972:

Jagad-anda means this universe is a big, I mean to say, volume. Just like anda, egg. Everything, every planet is just like egg. This brahmanda, this universe, is also like egg. So there are many many, many millions of jagadanda. And in each and every jagad-anda, kotisu vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam, there are innumerable planets also.

SECTION EIGHT
AXIAL ROTATION

Skanda Purana (I.1.31-71): “The earth revolves like a bhramarika (spinning top).”

Vayu Purana 17.51.7-9: “Dhruva revolves himself & makes all the planets & stars follow him like a wheel. By the will of Dhruva all these celestial bodies have an independent movement also. All the celestial bodies are tied to Dhruva with ropes of wind.”

NOTE: This verse from Vayu Purana clearly states that the planets also have an independent movement which can be interpreted as axial rotation.

Srimad Bhagavatam 3.11.13: “Influential stars, planets, luminaries and atoms all over the universe are rotating in their respective orbits under the direction of the Supreme, represented by eternal kala.”

NOTE: This verse above [3.11.13] can be interpreted in two ways: The planets are rotating in their orbits as well as the planets are rotating on their axis while orbiting the pole star.

The great Indian astronomer Aryabhata (476–550 CE), who wrote the famous book entitled ‘Aryabhatiya’, based on the Surya-siddhanta, concluded that the earth rotated on its axis and the stars were fixed in space. He goes on to say that the apparent rotation of the heavens was due to the fact that the earth revolved around its axis.

According to him the period of one rotation of the earth is 23 hours 56 mn 4.1s, while the modern value is 23 hours 56 mn 4.091s. His accuracy regarding this most difficult calculation undertaken at the beginning of the 6th century & without modern technology is simply amazing.

SECTION NINE

SHRILA PRABHUPAD’S QUOTES ON EARTH’S AXIAL ROTATION

Room Conversation -- June 15, 1976, Detroit: Madhavananda: They say that it's fixed. They say the polestar is fixed, but it doesn't revolve around. They say everything moves, but the polestar is fixed.

Prabhupada: Polestar is fixed, that is fact. And all, It is like pivot. Everyone round, round. Urdhva-mulam adhah-sakham (BG.15.1).
This tree is spread downwards. The root is upward.

Pusta Krishna: The scientists also say all of the stars are moving around. But they don't see the earth as moving around.

Prabhupada: Why not? What is this nonsense? If all the stars can move, what is the earth? That is their nonsense.

Lecture by Shrila Prabhupada on Bhagavad-gita [7.5] Bombay, February 20, 1974:

The spiritual force behind is moving the material world. Yayedah dharyate jagat. Jagat means gacchati iti jagat, which is moving or going forward. Everything is moving. All these planets are moving. Your earthly planet is also moving—within twenty-four hours covering 25,000 miles, day and night. The whole material planets, earthly planets, you have 25,000 miles, and this is rotating. Similarly every planet is rotating. The sun is also rotating.

Lecture by Shrila Prabhupada on Shrimad-Bhagavatam [3.26.3]
Bombay, December 15, 1974:

Just like on account of the sunshine all the planets are resting and rotating. That is scientific. Due to the heat of the sunshine, all the planets in the sky, they are rotating. It is due to sunshine. Similarly, this brahmanda, this universe, not only one universe, but millions of universes, they are also rotating in the brahmajyoti.

Room Conversation with Shyamasundara:

Shrila Prabhupada: Decision means because you are imperfect, human beings are imperfect, so their machine, these motorcars, there are so many accidents, so many killing. But because God is so perfect, although all the planets are rotating in their speed, just like this earth is rotating... What is the speed?

At least in twenty-four hours it is completing 25,000 miles. That means its speed is about 1000 miles at least. And similarly, other planets are also moving, similarly. And the sun planet is moving at 16,000 miles per minute or second, calculated. But all these planets are moving in this way, so much speed, but they are not colliding. The perfect arrangement is there, and they are floating. How it is possible? This is accidental? Do you think this is accidental?

Lecture by Shrila Prabhupada on Bhagavad-gita [16.8] Tokyo, January 28, 1975:

Now, as we see in the street that the cars are moving in high speed but they are within the orbit, within the line, demarcation of line, white line or yellow line, so there is some brain, there is some management, everything is there, Similarly, all these planets, they are rotating with high speed. Just like this planet. It is rotating 25,000 miles in twelve hours. Is it not? The circumference of this earth is 25,000 miles and... Yes, day and night, twenty-four hours. Almost one thousand miles per hour.

Lecture by Shrila Prabhupada in London, September 26, 1969:

And actually, scientifically, it is true that due to the heat of the sun planet all other planets are rotating; otherwise they'll fall down. But they're floating in the air, in the sky, due to this sunlight. Anyone who knows science, he'll admit, "Yes, that's a fact." And sun is the source of all energy in this material world. All this vegetation, all living condition, minerals—there are so many things—this is due to the sun. So sun in the king of all planets, as it is stated in the Vedic literatures.`

ALL GLORIES TO SHRILA PRABHUPADA

Praying to Jesus Christ for Krishna

Praying to Jesus Christ for Krishna

If your sincere God will find you.

This is the story of one young teenager who eventually became a devotee of Srila Prabhupada and Krishna by first going into the main Cathedral in Melbourne to pray to Jesus on February 17th 1972.

When this young man entered the great St Paul's Cathedral in the heart of Melbourne as a last resort to find some meaning and purpose to life, he went down on his knees in total helplessness and, with tears in his eyes, prayed to Jesus -

“Please, please my Lord use me in your service, in your plan, my life is now useless, it is better you use me in your plan to spread God Consciousness”

He prayed like this for about an hour, then to his surprise, a young Hare Krishna devotee in saffron robes walked in the Church (Shyamananda dasa is a brilliant artist who was admiring the various Christian paintings there).

This young man was very moved by Shyamananda’s simplicity and knew the mumbling he was hearing was like the rosary, yes, he was chanting the names of God, the Hare Krishna mantra.

This young man took this as a gift and message to his prayers from Jesus and was totally convinced Jesus was showing him the way and answering his prayers.

This young man was really amazed and could feel the presence of God all around him.

The Hare Krishna Movement was not new to him though, he did have previous association with devotees in October 1970 when he purchased a Back to Godhead Magazine off a devotee (number 36 magazine) who was visiting Melbourne from Sydney the only Temple in Australia at the time.

He also associated with Upananda dasa now Avadhoot Maharaj in May 1971 some 8 months earlier at the Sydney Paddington Temple and also at the Glebe Hereford street Temple in Sydney.

It was there he would read KRSNA BOOK to him while he cooked for Radha Gopinath, who had just been installed by Srila Prabhupada.

The young man now had tears in his eyes in this magnificent Cathedral seeing this young devotee Syamananda dasa and remembering his association in Sydney 8 months earlier in between taking LSD and visiting the Temple.

LSD did give him many realizations but only made him further realize God is not cheap and can never be found in a powerful psychedelic drug, the greatest realization from LSD was One must find a Spiritual living Teacher and surrender to him.

He never took his eyes off Shyamananda dasa as he walked around the Cathedral. When the Shyamananda left, the young man followed him out and watched what he thought was one of Gods angles, walk up the street.

The young man then walked no more than ten yards up Swanston st, Melbourne when a bubbling young girl in her mid teens approached him in a beautiful sari with flowers in her hair, he remembered her from 1970 and from Sydney Temple also in 1971 “Hari Bol'’ she said, then continued.

I’m with the Hare Krishna Movement and here is our magazine Back to Godhead, we are having a love feast tomorrow, come along and experience the ecstasy of Krishna Consciousness!

This young man was blown away, as they used to say back then, he was thrilled and truly believed Jesus had answered his prayers.

Probably the most astonishing thing was when he turned up the next day with his 10 year old brother (February 18th 1972); it was Lord Caitanya’s appearance day one of the most auspicious days in the Krishna Conscious calendar.

He then went on to play the part of Hari dasa Thakur in a play (because he had a scraggly beard) where Lord Nityananda was hit on the head with a clay pot.

Lord Caitanya (played by Kurma dasa instructed Nityananda Prabhu (played by Ajita dasa) and Haridasa Thakur (played by the young man who only the day before was praying in a Church for direction from Jesus) to go to everyone’s house in Nadia and request them to chant Krishna’s name.

The two great devotees eagerly set forth and began to knock on each and every door with the request, “please chant Krishna’s name, worship Krishna and teach others about Krishna.”

They were happily received by the pious people, while the envious would blaspheme them.

Completely unconcerned by favourable or unfavourable reactions they proceeded around the town.

In Nadia there lived two very sinful brothers called Jagai played by Avadhoot Maharaj Maharaj and Madhai (Played by and Sanak dasa Stavros Steve Vergis) Jagai and Madhai were born in pious Brahman families however; due to bad association they had become meat eaters, drunkards, thieves and arsonists.

There was no crime that they had not committed, including the most abominable sin of killing cows and Brahmans and abusing and having sex with so many different women.

The entire town was terrified of these two persons who seemed to be the very personification of all sinful activities.

On the day Nityananda Prabhu (played by Ajita dasa) and Haridasa Thakur (played by the young 19 year old man) were moving in the town, these two brothers, completely intoxicated were alternatively fighting and embracing each other.

After observing them for some time Nityananda Prabhu compassionately decided to deliver them and thus approached them.

Despite the warnings of the town people Lord Nityananda and Haridasa Thakur, approached the two drunkards instructing them to chant the holy name of the Lord.

Hearing these words the two sinners looked up and seeing the two saintly figures roared in anger.

They leapt up and ran to catch the two sannyasis. The two devotees fled at the sight of the attacking brothers.

Apparently terrified they shouted, “Krishna! Save us!! Govinda!,” and ran. (The young man remembers clearly Arjita and himself doing this)

The two brothers wandered off in their drunken condition along the banks of the Ganga where Caitanya Mahaprabhu bathed. Constantly drunk, they started harassing and terrorizing the devotees.

Eventually Nityananda and Haridasa went to the Ganges to see Lord Caitanya (played by Kurma dasa) however the two brothers again accosted them. On seeing Lord Nityananda, Madhai (played by Sanaka dasa) became furious and struck Him with a broken earthen pot.

When Jagai (played by Avadhoot Maharaj saw the blood flowing from the wound, he became compassionate and restrained his brother.

While Nityananda Prabhu patiently stood, looking at the brothers with compassion, tolerating the pain and humiliation, Haridasa ran to tell Caitanya Mahaprabhu about the incident. (Yes, the young man kept repeating his lines for this part and kept repeating the name of Lord Caitanya so he would not forget)

Hearing that Nityananda Prabhu had been hurt by the brothers, Caitanya Mahaprabhu ran towards them with the intention to kill them.

He summoned His chakra which looked like death personified to the two terrified brothers.

However Nityananda Prabhu who is even more merciful than Lord Caitanya quickly intervened and begged Caitanya Mahaprabhu to stop. He reminded Him of His mission to kill the sinners by saturating them with love of Godhead, to hate the sin but NOT the dinners. Thus appeased the Lord took back His chakra.

Nityananda Prabhu told Caitanya Mahaprabhu that it was Jagai who had saved Him from further harm at Madhai’s hand. Hearing this Caitanya Mahaprabhu said to Jagai -

“By protecting Nityananda you have purchased Me. You may ask any desire you have in your heart.

From today on you will have pure love and devotion for Krishna”

Hearing this Jagai fell at the feet of the two Lords and grasping the feet of Caitanya Mahaprabhu wept.

Seeing the wonderful transformation in his brother, a remorseful Madhai begged for the mercy of the Lord. However, since he had committed the worst of all offences, that of attacking a Vaishnava, the Lord did not even consider all his pitiful pleas for mercy.

Only after Madhai grasped the feet of Nityananda Prabhu and received His mercy did Caitanya Mahaprabhu agree to deliver Madhai also.

That night the young man who took directions from Jesus, took his young 10 year old brother back to the home of his birth and then came back and joined the Temple. That night he was shaved up by the Temple President Sanak dasa and eventually become initiated by Srila Prabhupada on July 10 1972.

To this very day he is thankful to Jesus Christ who directed him to Srila Prabhupada who in turn began teaching him about Krishna’s pastimes.

That young man was me Gauragopala dasa

Hari Bol,

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Your fallen servant, Gauragopala dasa

The jivas were never created

The number of soul are fixed in Vaikuntha, no new souls are created because Vaikuntha is in the ''eternal presence''

Sastra says Gita 2.20 - ‘’For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval’’. the word ''unborn'' is very clear meaning the jiva was never born.

Also BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

The jivas were never created

Everything is already there in Vaikuntha. Just manifests in different pastimes.

BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

The above verse explains , it is not that the souls are created at some point of a time of creation. The souls always existed along with the supersoul Krishna as his part and parcel . Just like

"Sunlight exists along with Sun as a part of sun"

"Spark exists along with fire as a part of it"

"Heat exists along with fire as an attribute of fire"

Similarly each soul (Brahman) exists along with their leader (para-Brahman) krishna. And to confirm that Krishna again says

BG 2.20: For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval.

Soul is birthless, hence there is nothing as such Creation of soul. Again he go on saying He is unborn,eternal, ever-existing and primeval. Here the three words unborn, eternal and ever-existing makes it very clear that the soul has no birth, so it is not created that's why it is eternal and ever-existing , just like heat always exists with fire , fragrance always exists with flower.

Again the same thing i.e. nature of the soul (unborn, eternal, indestructible , ever-existing ) Krishna emphasizing again and again in further verses. In Vedic literature on some context is given much importance to make audience understand it repeats the context again and again to make it clear and confirm.

BG 2.21: O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?

BG 2.24: This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same.

Thus it confirms in this way that Soul is never created , it always existed along with Krishna as his energy. So Krishna is not creating soul,

The number of soul is fixed only Krishna’s lilas eternally expand.

Vaikuntha is eternal, no beginning souls there were never created and that is where we came from

Bhagavad Gita 2, 20 - For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval.

The permanent characteristics is ones eternal svarupa and while one is in that original position, as ones real self then the influence of tatastha does not exists even though technically it does.

When the word ''impersonal origin'' is used it means the state of the jiva and where it originates from.

Some say, ''they generate from a ''clear sheet of consciousness'' however it is this ''impersonal'' concept that Prabhupada rejects - ''Jivas are generated from a clear sheet of consciousness''

Prabhupada rejects the concept that ''souls are generated from a clear sheet of consciousness''

Also Prabhupada explains their is no origin to the jiva tattva and they fall from Vaikuntha to Maha Vishnu and the He plants them in the material creation, also no jiva tattva ''actually'' originates from Balarama or Maha Vishnu rather they go through them.

Yes and Balarama is older than Krishna too lol - its all lila

My point is the jivas were never created by Balarama or Krishna they have always been, only the material world is created.

Sastra says Gita 2.20 - ‘’For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval’’. the word ''unborn'' is very clear meaning the jiva was never born.

Also BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

The jivas were never created

Krishna is the maintainer of all existence in Goloka and Vaikuntha and His material ''creation'' Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, The jivas are nothing without Krishna and Krishna has no meaning without the jivas as Srila Prabhupada explains in ''Nectar of Devotion''

Both are equally eternal in the sense of there is no beginning but Krishna is always the Supreme Lord even though He has an older brother Balarama LOL.

Krishna has 100% of His own qualities, Vishnu has 93% of Krishna's qualities, Shiva has 84% of Krishna's qualities and the jivas like you and me have 78% of Krishna's qualities.

Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, they are NOT created by Krishna because they were never ''born'' they were never ''created''

Like Krishna the jivas have ALWAYS existed just ike the sunrays exist with the sun, this is how the jivas also eternally exist.

Krishna NEVER created the jivas, Why? But He is the Supreme Lord, yes true but the individual jivas were never created because they are eternally part of Him like the sunrays are part of the sun, they exist together and are inseparable.

To say we, the marginal living entities, are not eternal and ever existing and does not have a beginning as ''originally'' an eternal person, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970

Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.

Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.

The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down. It does not matter where a living entity stays. In the material world also there are different stages of living conditions, and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition.

Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.

Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahma effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.

As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.

In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.

So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.”

What Prabhupada is saying is the jivas were previously active ''before'' entering Maha Vishnu's effulgence, he is saying they never originated from that effulgence even though it may ''appear'' they do because of an enormous time span.

They have actually fallen to that effulgence by entering it at the end of the previous material creation or may have entered it as an impersonalist yogi, they have never originated from there or Maha Vishnu either because long, long, long before that they fell from Vaikuntha

This is explained here –

Revatīnandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahma-jyotir, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahma-jyotir is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva soul, and I go to the brahma-jyotir I'm still fallen.

Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls.

Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: That follows?

Srila Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vibhinnāṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnāṁśa. You can call it fallen.

Revatīnandana: But we usually think of fallen as being forgetful.

Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also forgetfulness. In the brahma-jyotir you are forgetful still. Because you are... That is stated in the śāstra, anādhṛta yuṣmad anghrayaḥ. Anādhṛta. They do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness.

Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970

Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album

The real meaning of Tatastha s’akti and the origin of the Jiva

The real meaning of Tatastha s’akti and the origin of the Jiva

Lecture on CC Madhya-lila 20.354-358 -- New York, December 28, 1966:

Srila Prabhupada – ‘’So Lord Caitanya gives evidences from the Mahā-purāṇam, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that the Supreme Lord, the Absolute Truth, is analysed in two characteristics. What are they? The are the personal characteristics and taṭastha characteristics?

Srila Prabhupada explains further - ''Taṭastha means they are sometimes manifested and they are not sometimes manifested. So this material world is the taṭastha characteristics, and the spiritual world is the personal characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha, or, I mean to say, taṭastha means marginal, marginal characteristics to the permanent characteristics. That is called spiritual elevation. We should not remain in the marginal state, but we should go to the permanent state’’. End of quote Lecture on CC Madhya-lila 20.354-358 -- New York, December 28, 1966:

Srila Prabhupada is saying that in Goloka the jiva tattva is not known as tatastha sakti even though they are however, they are not called that there, this is Prabhupada's point, he calls that position ''permanent characteristics''

Tatastha s’akti is a name for the jiva tattva in the material creation and impersonal brahman that simply means we have the ability to choose this side of being with Krishna or that side being in the mahat-tattva material creation, no-one comes from there because it is not a place.

There are 160 names for the jiva-tattva or the marginal energy like baddha--jiva, siddha-jiva, tatastha-jiva, jiva-tattva, jiva-s'akti, jiva bhutah etc that each describe the marginal living entity in its particular position.

For example tatastha s’akti or jiva-tatastha refers to the jiva-tattva's sovereignty as an individual living being while in the material creation or merged in the impersonal brahmajyoti THAT HAS FREE WILL AND THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE its destiny.

NO jiva-tattva comes from tatastha-s'akti because THEY are ALREADY tatastha-s'akti while in the material universe or trapped in the impersonal brahman and are ALWAYS jiva tattva or marginal energy while in Vaikuntha, material creation or the impersonal brahmajyoti.

Tatastha-s'akti is NOT some place in the cosmos; it is simply a description of the jiva-tattva (marginal living entity) nature pertaining to free will and the ability to choose while in the material universe and this category of jiva tattva known as jiva tatastha does not exist in the Vaikuntha explained at the end of this article.

In fact to enter Vaikuntha, one must progress beyond this level of jiva tattva known as tatastha in order to enter Vaikuntha as Srila Prabhupada explains

Tatastha s’akti simply means we have the ability to choose this side or material creation or that side or Vaikuntha planets while in the material universe or impersonal brahmajyoti.

Is the jiva tattva or marginal living entity known as tatastha-sakti in Vaikuntha or Goloka?

Srila Prabhupada - ''Taṭastha means they are sometimes manifested and they are not sometimes manifested. So this material world is the taṭastha characteristics, and the spiritual world is the personal characteristics.

So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha. or, I mean to say, taṭastha means marginal, marginal characteristics to the permanent characteristics''.

The comment ‘’The jiva is NEVER known as tatastha-sakti in Vaikuntha or Goloka’’ needs explaining, it is based it on this comment by Srila Prabhupada above

‘’ So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha’’

So what does that mean?

The jiva tattva is not ‘’known’’ as tatastha-sakti in Vaikuntha, that's what is meant even though technically the jiva-tattva is Tatastra sakti there too, just not known so there as such, that's what is meant.

Therefore the jiva-tattva in his svarupa position is NOT known in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana as tatastha sakti,

let me explain

Srila Prabhupada - ''Taṭastha means they are sometimes manifested and they are not sometimes manifested. So this material world is the taṭastha characteristics, and the spiritual world is the personal characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha’’

Then Prabhupada explains the ‘’permanent feature’’ of the marginal living entity or jiva tattva is above the ‘’influence of what the word tatastha’’ or choosing this side or that side because in Vaikuntha the great majority of jiva tattvas generally only chooses Krishna

However, as we know that can change due to free will, the ability to choose or sheer smallness of the marginal living entity and only then does the influence of tatastha manifest with less that 10% of jiva tattvas in Vaikuntha.

Prabhupada says – ‘’ Taṭastha means marginal, marginal characteristics to the ‘’permanent characteristics’’.

Do you understand what this ‘’permanent characteristics’’ means? It’s beyond the meaning of tatastha of actually ‘’choosing this side or that side, choosing Vaikuntha or the material world because the majority, 90% never ever make that choice and never fall down

The permanent characteristics is ones eternal svarupa and while one is in that original position, as ones real self then the influence of tatastha does not exists even though technically it does.

When the word ''impersonal origin'' is used it means the state of the jiva and where it originates from.

Some say, ''they generate from a ''clear sheet of consciousness'' however it is this ''impersonal'' concept that Prabhupada rejects - ''Jivas are NOT generated from a clear sheet of consciousness''

Prabhupada rejects the concept that ''souls are generated from a clear sheet of consciousness''

Also Prabhupada explains their is no origin to the jiva tattva and they fall from Vaikuntha to Maha Vishnu and the He plants them in the material creation, also no jiva tattva ''actually'' originates from Balarama or Maha Vishnu rather they go through them.

Yes and Balarama is older than Krishna too lol - its all lila

My point is the jivas were never created by Balarama or Krishna they have always been, only the material world is created.

Sastra says Gita 2.20 - ‘’For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval’’. the word ''unborn'' is very clear meaning the jiva was never born.

Also BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

The jivas were never created

Krishna is the maintainer of all existence in Goloka and Vaikuntha and His material ''creation'' Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, The jivas are nothing without Krishna and Krishna has no meaning without the jivas as Srila Prabhupada explains in ''Nectar of Devotion''

Both are equally eternal in the sense of there is no beginning but Krishna is always the Supreme Lord even though He has an older brother Balarama LOL.

Krishna has 100% of His own qualities, Vishnu has 93% of Krishna's qualities, Shiva has 84% of Krishna's qualities and the jivas like you and me have 78% of Krishna's qualities.

Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, they are NOT created by Krishna because they were never ''born'' they were never ''created''

Like Krishna the jivas have ALWAYS existed just ike the sunrays exist with the sun, this is how the jivas also eternally exist.

Krishna NEVER created the jivas, Why? But He is the Supreme Lord, yes true but the individual jivas were never created because they are eternally part of Him like the sunrays are part of the sun, they exist together and are inseparable.

To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970    

Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.

Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.

The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down.

It does not matter where a living entity stays. In the material world also there are different stages of living conditions, and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition.

Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.

Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahman effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.

As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.

In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.

So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.”

What Prabhupada is saying is the jivas were previously active ''before'' entering Maha Vishnu's effulgence, he is saying they never originated from that effulgence even though it may ''appear'' they do because of an enormous time span.

They have actually fallen to that effulgence by entering it at the end of the previous material creation or may have entered it as an impersonalist yogi, they have never originated from there or Maha Vishnu either because long, long, long before that they fell from Vaikuntha

This is explained here –

Revatīnandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahma-jyotir, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahma-jyotir is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva soul, and I go to the brahma-jyotir I'm still fallen.

Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls.

Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: That follows?

Srila Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vibhinnāṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnāṁśa. You can call it fallen.

Revatīnandana: But we usually think of fallen as being forgetful.

Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also forgetfulness. In the brahma-jyotir you are forgetful still. Because you are... That is stated in the śāstra, anādhṛta yuṣmad anghrayaḥ. Anādhṛta. They do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness.

Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970

Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album

Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha Krsna Bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Devotee - “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.

Srila Prabhupada - “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .”

Sakti is not exactly Visnu Tattva even though sakti tattva is also called sakti-Vishnu-tattva. The correct understanding is that all of Krsna’s energies are under the broad category of sakti-tattva. To make it simple there are only two categories.

1. Saktiman or God the controller of the energy

2. Sakti the energy of God are eternally occupied with their service to God, such expansions have only the desire to please Krishna or His Vishnu expansion, they can never be covered by Maya and their concept of free will and independence is only to please God as indirect expansion of Godhead.

Vaikuntha is made up of many sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas as gopis, gopas and many many others, there is also jiva tattvas playing many rolls in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana as well.

Sakti tattva nitya siddhas can never fall down and the jiva tattvas can NEVER become sakti tattva in the sense of loosing their independence as jiva tattva, even though technically all living entities are shakti tattva as well however, there is a difference also between different energies or expansions of the Lord.

We are also expansions. The jiva tattvas nitya siddhas like us on the other hand can 'choose' to forget God and enter the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu as nitya baddha and think they are a god and do their own thing.

God has many different energies. Jiva is one, Matter is one, the consorts of the Lord are one. Only the jiva tattvas can fall from Goloka Vrndavana neither sakti tattva or Vishnu tattva can fall as they are more divine expansions of the Lord.

Paramahamsa - “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return.

Srila Prabhupada - “There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is”.

Paramahamsa - “If we want”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.

Paramahamsa - “So we can come to the spiritual world and return?”

Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.

Paramahamsa - “Fall down?”

Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.”

Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”

Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence.  That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C

Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna says - “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.

When asked directly about whether the jiva was ever in the spiritual world with Krishna and seeing Krishna ''before'' coming to the material world, Srila Prabhupada mentions that Krishna (in the form of a Brahmana) says to King Puranjana (in his next life, as the daughter of Kind Vidarbha) “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.

Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?”

Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.

Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)

Only a minority fall down from Goloka and Vaikuntha and for them the mahat-tattva is created. No jiva souls originate from an impersonal source or from some cleat sheet of consciousness as some foolishly believe and teach.

Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”

Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

Srila Prabhupada - 'The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha, to bring them. It is a difficult task' New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada? Why God gave to man free will if He knew man would fall down in the material world?

Prabhupada: If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must be, must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life. >>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 15.15 -- August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm)

We do not ''originate'' from Maha Vishnu, no jiva tattvas do, some merge into His body at the end of this material creation and stay there until the next material creation where it only ''appears'' the jiva originates from Maha Vishnu but long before that they were with Krishna.

Or they can merge into the impersonal brahmajyoti at the end of the material creation as a impersonalist yogi fed up with material existence. To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.

Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.”

Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire.

Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”.

Srila Prabhupada is very clear here - ''Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition''

The jiva tattva NEVER originated or was generated from the Brahman effulgence or the ''impersonal'' aspect of the Brahmajyoti they ''originated'' from the ''personal'' aspect of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky known as Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.

Srila Prabhupada: Many. There are many reasons.

Devotee: I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we, in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krishna--and in that position, that, original position of full knowledge and full bliss--and being in our eternal nature . . . Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how Maya works, somewhat. But, if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how Maya works and . . . How I might fall?

Srila Prabhupada: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa? They were Krishna's Doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranyakasipu or Hiranyaksa?

Devotee: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krishna's personal associates, keeping . . . the Doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.

Devotee: Well, in His family, they wanted to enjoy the material world?

Srila Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So, because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krishna. Therefore, we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment.

Leaving Vaikuntha has nothing to do with material energy or maya because these do not exist in Vaikuntha however what there is in Vaikuntha is ''free will'', the ''ability to choose'' Ones fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana is due to free will, the sheer smallness of the jiva tattva and choice, not maya because material energy does NOT exist in Vaikuntha, so there is absolutely no material cause for ones fall down from Goloka Vrndavana

Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?

Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C